Northern Poker Stars Comes to Furness in 2011

[VBlue]

Hello to all at Furness Poker.

It has been some time since I last spoke to you through this forum. During this time Northern Poker Stars has continued to offer the very best in live poker tournaments at two of our venues in Carlisle and in Hensingham, West Cumbria.

For a multitude of reasons, we had to put on hold our launch in Furness, but we are now looking to approach a suitable venue (please make any suggestions back to us on this post) to host our new tournament programme for 2011.

We have continued to offer a range of tournaments at both venues and will be bringing our offering to the players of Furness in 2011:

Monthly Freezeout Tournament

10k Deepstack Freezeout with a Buy-in of £50 + £7 - we have planned to host 11 monthly events during 2011

The prize fund will be the total accumulated buy-in from all players

We are also running two special annual events, coming up:

Northern Poker Stars Team Championship 2010 - held at the Ukranian Club, Carlisle on Saturday, 18th December.

For Facebook users - http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=153665828003730

Or - http://www.northernpokerstars.co.uk/index.php

We would love to see a few teams from Furness enter this competition. We are inviting teams of six players to enter and play for our huge prize fund,team captain head-hunter bounties, and our beautiful silver cup.

Northern Poker Stars Individual Championship 2011 - held at the Ukranian Club, Carlisle on the 4th weekend in July (tbc)

With a £200 + £20 buy-in and a planned 2 day format, this event is your opportunity to mix it with the best players in the County and beyond. Last year players fought for a prize pool just short of £10,000 with our champion winning £3,570 and our beautiful silver cup.

This will be our premier event and we will be offering opportunity to qualify for a fraction of the seat entry price through regional live super-satellite tournaments, depending on demand.

You can also win a discounted seat for only £1 by buying a raffle ticket at one of our live tournaments (details below).

Online Tournaments

Northern Poker Stars Online League - A bi-weekly online game with a $25 + $2.5 buy-in. Players also earn points towards the Online Player of the Year, with a cash prize fund and trophy for our eventual winner.

Numbers look to be on the increase with 30 players at our 2nd game of the season. We would like to get this up to 40 in the coming weeks.

Tournament Offering

- hand-made wooden poker tables varnished and covered with our Northern Poker Stars felt
- COPAG and KEM cards and NEXGEN chips used
- competent Tournament Director and Tournament Director 2 software projected to a large screen
- trained dealers at each table

Cash Tables

- 25p/50p cash table available to tournament players who have busted out
- optional dealer provided to each cash table
- 888poker supply NPS with our very own cash tables, chip-sets, and cards

Monthly Raffle

- Purchase a strip for £1 - raffle available at each monthly live event
- Win the raffle, drawn live at the monthly events and earn 1 place in our July 2011 draw. Win more than one month and you earn more entries into the end of year draw
- Our draw in July 2011 is for £180 towards a £200 + £20 seat at our Individual Championship 2011 in Carlisle

Northern Poker Stars are doing everything we can to continually bring the very best live poker to the players of Cumbria.

If you have any comments, or feedback, we would love to hear from you.

Cheers

Mark V (V_Blue)

[VBlue]

78 Views of this post and not one single comment from any player in the area.

I want to bring high quality, high value, local poker tournaments to the live scene in Furness.

Our offering is second to none inside Cumbria. I would really like to see some support from the players before I put in a lot of effort, hard work, and expense.

Thanks to Robbo and Liam Crawford for their comments on Facebook.

As for the rest of Furness - as Delia would say 'Where Are Ya'?

Please fire a comment either on this post or on the Furness Poker Facebook group to show that you want us to deliver live poker to you.

Cheers all.

Mark V

[Devilperch]

Mark,

Venues in the Barrow / Dalton area is not an issue and once you decide on dates then either myself, Robbo or Jon Seal will gladly put you in touch with them and help out. The key here is just to get dates in the diary, get it advertised, spread the word and players will come especially for a regular £50 game. There is only a select few who take time out to organise such events the other 85% of the players in the area want it sorting so they can just turn up and play so don't be disheartened by the lack of replies. My advice is to just go for it but get it planned now for dates next year so nothing else we plan locally clashed with it.

I'm All In.......................

Cheers
Chris

[Reg]

Could you post up the structure for the 10k deepstack game please?

[Trainglot]

Hi Mark,

Sorry but don't get on to the forum that often nowadays.

Sounds very interesting and I would be happy to help Salmon and Sealy spread the word once the dates are in the diary - I have a lot of live poker players mobile numbers and when we re-started the Wednesday poker league in Dalton last year we managed to get nearly 50 people on the 1st night by texting, email and word of mouth - Texting is by far the most effective.

Personally, I think Dalton Cricket Club is a great venue and quite central for the Furness players wherever they live - Sealy can put you in touch with Gareth Jones to help sort this out.

Good luck !!

Darren Naylor

[Wolfy]

Mark,

Firstly let me say that I will almost probably play in the event should you organise one, however I would like to pick up on a few concerns within your post.

The main problem you will have in the area is that there are a lot of very well run tounaments organised by local poker players like Jon, Chris, Robbo, Dave and a few more who do it without charging a 10 - 15% entry fee. I know you claim that you run some of the best games in the area, but I have played in some of the games organised locally by these lads and they are run very well often better than some of the national games put on in casinos, so with respect I dont feel that you will knock our socks of with your games.

I have also heard a rumour that each player at the table has to pay the dealers £1 per hour in the tourney game, is this true?

Blackpool and Bolton casinos are easier to get to from Barrow than Carslile and with a lesser rake I think this may be why you don't get a lot of players from the area coming to your games.

Please don't take all of this as a negative I'm only voiceing opinions held by others, but if you put on a game I do feel that you will get the support of the local lads, just don't treat us like idiots by thinking that we do not have the ability to run as good a tourney as you, because if that were the case you would have already put the game on, regardless of the risk, without asking us to assist.

[VBlue]

Chris - thanks for your advice.

I hope to be able to deliver news of a venue and dates for 2011 v.soon.

Mark.

[VBlue]

Reg - I'll get on to this for both events and post the structures here. We are currently running a different structure in Whitehaven and Carlisle, but all venues will move to these two structures from January 2011.

[VBlue]

Daz - thanks for your advice too. I didn't keep up to date with your adventures as a sponsored pro for Boyles. Hope all went well and continues to do so. I look forward to hearing more next time I see you.

[VBlue]

Wolfy - firstly, thank you for your reply.

This is exactly the kind of response I want as I am happy to field any questions, concerns, criticisms, constructive advice, etc. Of course, it is extremely helpful to me that you do this through the forum so that other players can see the question and response and join in the discussion.

I am going to split the reply over a few posts to higlight each point and make it easier to read than one long post. I will include the highlghted section of your post and then my reply.

NPS Fees

there are a lot of very well run tounaments organised by local poker players like Jon, Chris, Robbo, Dave and a few more who do it without charging a 10 - 15% entry fee.

NPS are a profit-making company and we also have almagamated costs in setting up in a new area and ongoing running costs for these live events, which we could not cover without charging our players some sort of fee. NPS have constantly listened to our players and amended the structure of our fees and tournament to suit their demands.

Our initial set-up costs include: transportation of equipment, purchase of high-quality handmade wooden poker tables with felt centres, a laptop, projector and large screen to display the tournament management software, provision of staff uniforms, COPAG and KEM card sets for our dealers, Dealer Buttons, and NEXGEN chip sets.

We also need to keep on top of the quality of our equipment and have further costs in re-conditioning our tables and providing new card sets, etc.

We also provide a website, numerous prizes which run throughout the year, and wherever possible we give as much back to our players as we can within the remit of running a profitable business.

We have in the past also given away, out of our own funds, free seats to our own live tournaments and free seats to a GUKPT Main Event. We present our Live and Online Players of the Year with trophies and have purchased two beautiful silver cups for our Main Event winners at our Individual and Team events each year.

Within Carlisle and Whitehaven we have also put on nil rake tournaments each year to give something back to our players.

NPS Tournament Experience

I know you claim that you run some of the best games in the area, but I have played in some of the games organised locally by these lads and they are run very well often better than some of the national games put on in casinos, so with respect I dont feel that you will knock our socks of with your games

Firstly, I would like to say that if I didn't think we could present a top quality poker experience to you and your players, I quite simply would not be involved with NPS and would not be putting on these events. I have every confidence, that through the quality of our equipment, our trained dealers, and the hard-work of all at NPS, including myself acting as Tournament Director, we will ensure that you and the players of Furness have a great day of poker and will return to our tournaments throughout the year.

I have several years experience of running pub poker tournaments within a National league brand and have also run tournaments previously for NPS. I have adopted a widely used set of Rules and Etiquette, which I know well and have confidence in applying during the course of a tournament to ensure that any tournament decisions are resolved immediately, fairly and consistently.

[VBlue]

Provision of Dealers

have also heard a rumour that each player at the table has to pay the dealers £1 per hour in the tourney game, is this true?

We do provide the option of beginning the tournament at a self-deal table, which you can request. However, should you then be moved to a dealer dealt table later in the tournament you will be required to tip the dealer every hour.

Our players are asked to tip our dealers £2 for the first hour of the tournament and £1 per hour thereafter. Previously, this cost was deducted from the total prize pool, but after listening to our players we changed to our current system.

We believe that this system offers the dealers a fair days income. It is very difficult to attract staff for what is essentially often only one days work per month, always on a Sunday, and a position for which they must attend training - for which they receive no pay. Our dealers are given uniforms, card sets, and DBs at our expense.

We always offer new dealer positions to the friends and family of our players, always employing locally wherever we can. I already know of two people who have expressed an interest in working for us at our events from within Furness and who you will no doubt know. Occassionally, we may bring in other dealers from our other operating areas as cover or to add experience whilst others get up to speed.

We believe that our dealers are better placed to keep the game flowing smoothly and ensures that our players can concentrate on playing their game. This means that there is no interruptions when players are missing when it is their turn to deal and provides a level of consistency when the cards are shuffled and dealt.

Support from the Tournament Director is provided whenever there is a tournament ruling required.

[VBlue]

NPS in Carlisle

Blackpool and Bolton casinos are easier to get to from Barrow than Carlisle and with a lesser rake. I think this may be why you don't get a lot of players from the area coming to your games.

Carlisle was never positioned to appeal to the players of Furness. Within Carlisle and indeed Whitehaven, we are the only legal poker tournament operators offering tournaments with prize pools of the sizes we offer. This is often a better value option for their local players than a trip to Newcastle, Bolton, or Blackpool - considering travel and often overnight accomodation costs. Our objective is now to provide Furness players with the same.

NPS Rake

At NPS we do not have the benefit of being able to subsidise the cost of running our tournaments through a bar (as the venues we use keep their own bar takings) or through casino games, such as blackjack, roulette, slots, etc.

We are not interested in trying to win back any of the money we pay out in prize money to our players. We are only interested in running the best tournament we can, deilvering the best vaule we can, and earning a fair wage for our work.

I do not have the rake rates applied at G Casino or any of the other casino operators, so I cannot compare them to our own. Even if I did, I have highlighted how any comparison would not be a fair one.

[VBlue]

Furness Live Scene

I have a lot of respect for the poker scene and those involved in the Furness area, Chris Salmon, Jez, Jon Seal, Daz, and Robbo have been extremely welcoming and helpful to me since I began presenting the idea of NPS delivering live poker to the local players.

I have been welcomed at the weekly games in Dalton by all the players, when I have come through on the odd occassion with friends, and have enjoyed the game and the banter.

There is no point in me setting up a game, advertising it, recruiting staff, transporting equipment, etc. only to see a handful of players turn up as the buy-in is too high/too low, wrong location, wrong timing, etc. I therefore believe that it always makes sense to openly communicate with our players and what better time to do this than now. We want to bring live poker to you all, but we want to bring you an offering that you want.

To close, I hope that this reply has covered any concerns. I welcome further comments on either this forum or the Furness Poker Facebook group or our own Northern Poker Stars Facebook group.

I look forward to seeing a great turnout for our first event and to delivering live poker to you all in 2011.

[Reg]

I was liking this until I read about tipping dealers on an hourly basis. This could conceivably add an extra £10-£12 to the cost of playing which would effectively mean that the competition is a £50 + £17 buyin game, which is likely to put a lot of players off taking part. If part of the service you offer is to provide dealers, the cost should be carried by you. You could pass the cost of that onto the host of the tournament by charging them a fee for your services, much in the same way as a singer, or comedian would. Effectively charging up to 20% juice on a game is out of line imo and is exploiting players who perhaps don't understand just how damaging the extra juice is to their ev.

[VBlue]

Reg, in response to your comments about the dealers:

Firstly, as I have pointed out we want to give employment to local people - often wives, girlfriends, and family of the players - and to pay them a rate which provides a good day's pay, as only offering one Sunday event per month makes it hard to attract staff and retain them.

Previously, these costs had come from the player prize pool - so this new system means that the prize pool is not diminished by the total dealer costs.

If NPS were to bear the cost of employing dealers we would end up making such little income from these tournaments that they would not be worth the time and effort. We are a business and any business has, amongst one of it's primary objectives, to make money.

Dealers are not going to give up personal time to train and then work a Sunday for minimum wage. We know this from experience.

Offering the dealers the rate that we offer brings loyal staff and allows us to provide consistency of the standard of dealing throughout our tournaments.

We want to provide the host venue with an opportunity to make a good days income from the bar sales and any food they may decide to sell on the day. If I was to ask them to pay our dealers they would make little or no profit from the day and therefore they would not host our tournaments.

I am not sure how you have come to the figure of £10-£12. I will confirm the tournament structure when I receive but even if it was 7 hours playing time this would add £8 to the cost for the day, should you sit at a dealer dealt table from the outset. Obviously, players playing very late in the day are going to be cash prize winning players.

You can opt to sit at a self-deal table if you feel that you would prefer to save £2 or £3 on the total cost of the day. Personally, I, as a player, and our players across Carlisle and Whitehaven have enjoyed having a dealer at our table and have found the costs acceptable and worthwhile.

I think your comment at the end about 'exploiting players' is unfair. I am completely open about our charges and am nothing but honest in my approach. I think the percentage figure is irrelevant; the total amount that we charge and make when compared with our costs and the offering that we provide is very relevant and we believe is fair and necessary.

I have explained the need to structure costs in the way that we do. We are not here to exploit people, rip them off, or make a killing in income from the back of these games. We are here to deliver the very best in quality through our tournament equipment and the quality of the delivery of the event and to make a decent income compared to the time and effort and costs incurred.

I do hope that you give us a chance before you condemn us. I know that players are always looking for flaws and that is something we constantly deal with and react to. However, we are continually fair with our players, we value them, we treat them with respect, we listen to them, and we are constantly looking at ways to give them more.

Ken Johnson, owner of NPS, has done a huge amount for a lot of players - ask around on the West Coast and in Carlisle.

When you become a part of our poker club and play our events, you will see that we are who we say we are and that we deliver what we say we will.

Cheers

Mark V

[Well Oiled]

Hey guys, just been reading all the points of view. The simple conclusion that I would come to (as a full time poker player) is that I would be far from happy about playing any game anywhere in the world where the rake was over 10%, unless there was a fee for charity which is more than acceptable.

I have 100% faith that these tournaments are very entertaining, well structured and it would be a privilege to win one. I am not doubting the credibility of the way these tournaments are run, or the ability of the dealers. A fee of over 10% is too much though, I understand that the compay needs to make money, but that story wont wash with people when they need to folk out extra money.

I will be playing these tournaments because I am looking forward to something new, and it is something different from the games we have currently. I also like to support any poker coming into the Furness area. My suggestion, if this would be possible, is that you scrap having any dealers and we just deal ourselves. Self dealing doesn't seem to be a problem in the Furness games. Infact in my experience, when someone volunteers to deal on a final table in Furness games, there are more bung deals than when it is self-dealt, because people get confused with position etc.

I hope this thread doesn't sound too critical, I am a big fan of what you do Mark, and as I said before, I am looking forward to talking part in these events.

Liam Crawford

[PaulRobinson]

I have to say in defence of the NPS that the fees are very reasonable, they do not have the luxury of casinos who make more than enough money by players also participating in slots games, roulette, blackjack etc. As far as bung deals, these are usually made by people whose only experience is through local games and have had no prior training, I have to point out when sat at the table on almost "EVERY" cycle in a self deal game there is some error made by one or two players, this maybe that they incorrectly muck the burn cards, do not use the bottom card, decide they must rabbit the deck, all of these things I consider to be annoying and bad play. Of course there is the point as well, if you hire a dealer in a cash game at the casino, the rate is £3 per half hour per player.
I am more than happy to pay a juice fee if I am getting value, and if that means I can just get on with the game and have a fully trained dealer to handle the pots, cards and chops then I am more than happy. I am looking forward to playing these games as they are going to save me a lot of money on travel and hotel expenses for such things as the deepstack at Blackpool (£23.80 Train + £20 Hotel) So all that is left for me to say is "Bring It On "

[Reg]

Vblue

Many apologies if I have offended you, it certainly wasn't my intention.

I just have a bee in my bonnet about the rake across the entire poker world, both online, in casino's and in games such as the ones you provide.

Big sites, such as Pokerstars for example rake literally 100's of million dollars per year, which is money that never goes back into the poker economy. I'm obviously not comparing your company to pokerstars but on a micro scale, you're doing the very same thing and charging what might effectively be more than 20% rake to players that make the final table is extortionate. Your point about them winning a cash prize is irrelevant to my point.

I understand that your company has to make money but I think its taking the easy option to charge the players for the dealer service. I stand by my point that the cost should be intially carried by your company and then perhaps offset by gaining sponsorship, say from Chas Kendall for example. I also think that its appropriate for the host venue to pay for your services. If the tournament is well publicised, its entirely possible that you could get around 100 runners. Thats 100 punters in Dalton CC for several hours that they otherwise wouldn't have had. Why should they get that for free whilst the players are saddled with extra costs on top of a rake that is already >10%?

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I like the idea of having well run games with decent prizepools ran locally but the entire cost of the day for someone who likes a drink and doesn't get in the money is likely to run to over £100 and in the current climate, thats sure to put a lot of people off.

[VBlue]

Reg, thanks for your opening line. I am happy that your intention, is not/was not to offend and my reply is certainly not intended to either, despite me talking strongly about our offering throughout.

Costs

You refer again to the fact that you think that the initial cost should be borne by Northern Poker Stars to provide dealers.

I am not going to reveal the full ins and outs of our operation; after all we do not want to lay it on a plate for others to come and copy our business model. However, I can assure you that NPS will be bearing a significantly high set-up cost to bring our offering to Furness and that it will take NPS several events before we recover those costs and start to turn a profit.

We are quite simply not raking millions on a minor scale or any other scale and we certainly do not model ourselves on Pokerstars or their values. You call our charges extortionate, again using quite a strong word to use about our offering. To accurately describe our costs as extortionate you would need to know the full costs we incur and the full value that we give back to our players, which with respect you do not know in either case.

Attracting Players

NPS have extensive experience of operating these types of event in Cumbria over several years. Whilst we would like to regularly sell 100 seats, this is an ambitious target initially. I don't think some of the events run in the last year or so have hit these numbers, even relying on their much closer links to the local poker community.

I do not know if you have any experience in promoting events such as these. A lot of effort goes into selling seats, promoting our offering, and dealing with accusations and complaints before we have even got going. That is not intended as a dig at you Reg, but it is a fact that I have already spent hours drafting and completing replies to this thread.

That said, we are confident of attracting sufficient numbers of players to provide a healthy prize pool for our players to compete for through our current advertising and marketing efforts, which began some months ago. Advertising is costly, time consuming, and has limited impact in our experience. I do make full use of forums such as this one, Facebook, and one or two other methods. Often our best way of attracting new players is from the 'word of mouth' recommendations made by our existing players.

Dealer Costs

If you are referring to the fact that a dealer working, for example a 5 hour day earning £60 at £12 per hour, is extortionate then I can assure you that some local operators of casino events charge more. I know this from personal experience having provided freelance work for a Cumbrian based operator. Also, Paul Robinson pointed out the £3 per half hour per player cost at local casinos that he attends.

The players in Carlisle and Whitehaven have been happy with the cost of providing dealers.

I am almost certain that the quality of the dealing will suffer without provision of dealers as has already been alluded to by Paul Robinson, and there will likely be fewer number of hands per hour played.

I also wish to highlight that NPS do not make any income from providing dealers - we do it for the benefit of our players. In fact, dealer training and the provision of NPS polo shirts costs us time and money.

Cost Structuring

Using a 50 player tournament example, with 5 dealers:

You suggest that the host venue pays what could easily be in the region of £350 (off the top of my head this is close enough) to cover the dealer costs.

How would you propose that the venue recoups this cost? I can be reasonably certain that the profit that they would make on their bar takings would not cover this cost and the cost of providing their own bar staff and overheads. I am also certain that no venue would host our events if we suggested that they cover this cost.

You used an example of comedians and singers charging venues for their services. Do you know how much they charge and how the venue recoups this cost? In my experience they sell tickets to cover this cost and do not fund it from bar sale profits.

I am sorry if this last comment sounds harsh and I assure you it is not personal and no offence is intended. From your comments it suggests to me that you have no experience or understanding of this business from recruiting players, running events, managing a poker club, costs incurred, or generating an income.

NPS Offering to Our Members

We have a good reputation amongst our members and always wish to preserve that. This would not be possible if we were extorting or exploiting our players.

A point I keep coming back to, which has yet to be picked up by you in your posts, is the continual value that we offer back to our players. I have asked some of our existing members to join this forum discussion so that you can understand better exactly how we treat our members and all of the extras that players have benefited from through being a member of our club.

Event Buy-In

We have consistently tried to ensure that we offer players the right size buy-in event. I was previously told by some players from Furness that our old format, with a £30 buy-in, would not be worth attending for many players and that they wanted us to generate bigger prize pools.

We cannot cater for everyone under one tournament and we do not propose to. If £50 events or £100 events are outside players bankrolls, then I am not holding a gun to anyone's head demanding their money - it is their choice whether to invest or not. I am sure there are plenty of lower buy-in pub and club games to accommodate these players already in existence throughout Furness.

The £50/£100 buy-in is not a 'cost' - it is an investment in yourself in a poker tournament. You would not say that it 'cost' you £10 to place a bet as it has not bought you anything - it is money you have decided to gamble, as is a poker tournament entry fee. The £50 entries are pooled and paid back out to the players.

The only actual 'cost' of the day taken by NPS is £7 per person for a £50 tournament and £12 per person for a £100 tournament. Any other costs associated with food and drink are entirely optional and we are not responsible for managing players' expenditure beyond the cost of the event itself.

No matter what we offer, we cannot please all of the people all of the time. Our aim is to please a sufficient number of players to ensure that an attractive prize pool is generated at our events and our aim is to deliver a quality event so that those players will return each month and spread the word amongst the poker playing community, which in turn will increase our membership and swell our prize funds.

I am happy to field further concerns but am also wary of continually going over the same ground. I therefore trust that my replies this far have sufficiently answered your queries and stated our product clearly enough.

To close, I welcome your attendance at our events and hope to attract as many players throughout Furness as possible. However, if you do not like what you hear then please exercise your right not to attend.

Cheers

Mark

[Reg]

Cost Structuring



I am sorry if this last comment sounds harsh and I assure you it is not personal and no offence is intended. From your comments it suggests to me that you have no experience or understanding of this business from recuriting players, running events, managing a poker club, costs incurred, or generating an income. Both Ken Johnson, Paul Lamonby in Carlisle and I have years of experience running poker tournaments across Cumbria. We are not arrogant because of this and as I have said we listen to our members and make changes to our offering in line with the majority. I have demonstrated this by taking onboard your comments so far about dealers and showing a willingness to remove this service from our tournaments should the majority request us to.

No need to apologise for having an opinion fella. You're right in that I don't have any experience of organising a poker tournament or managing a poker club etc.. but, I do have experience of walking into many pubs who have an act of some description on, free of charge to customers, so your argument about selling tickets, whilst being valid, isn't necessarily the norm. Also, I never said that the venue should pick up the entire cost and I also mentioned the possibility of getting a sponsor for your events, which you didn't address. I'm sure there must be some business' out there who would be willing to pony up the £350 and a trophy to have their name bandied about on various forums/facebook etc.. I fully understand that the costs have to be met, I just think its a bit much to charge 14% juice and then add a dealer charge on top of that.

From a recreational players point of view, I can see why they would just swallow the costs and accept its just part of the way things are but from the point of view of someone who tracks his results and fully appreciates just how much of a chunk of his profits are swallowed up by rake, I can see that the tournament doesn't offer much in terms of value to players

To close, I welcome your attendance at our events and hope to attract as many players throughout Furness as possible. However, if you do not like what you hear then please exercise your right not to attend.

Cheers

Mark

Much as I would like to take part in the game because its great for local poker to have a decent buyin tournament to play in, on principle, I don't think I can play in a game that if last more than three hours in, I will end up paying 20% minimum rake. However, I very much doubt that many, if any others will share my point of view and I don't think the numbers will suffer because of your dealer charge policy.

I'm pretty sure that I'm coming across as a pretentious prick here but the poker economy is being bled dry by excessive rake and charges and IMO if players don't make a stand, sooner or later, the games will be absolutely terrible because weaker players will eventually get fed up of losing their money too quickly(not understanding that they lose a lot of it to the rake)and just find something else to do with their expendable income.

Slightly off topic, I know but if you look at the trends for traffic across all the major sites and networks, pretty much all of them are losing players, some at quite an alarming rate. Its too easy just to blame the situation with the global recession, as in past recessions, gambling typically hasn't suffered as badly as other industries. The problem is that the players at the bottom end, typically the recreational players are being raked to death and if they're not careful, sites and casino's may well end up skinning the sheep instead of shearing it.

[VBlue]

Hi Reg.

I didn't want to leave your last comment without reply. I will say that this is my final comment on this matter though, as I don't want to clog this post up with further comments on this subject. I am happy to take up any further discussion with you personally though, so feel free to PM me on here or Facebook anytime.

Firstly, I do not think that you come across as being pretentious. However, I do think that your gripe is more with the subject of rake across the industry, as you have alluded to and perhaps this is clouding your view of our club's rake a little.

I also think that again you have made, what I consider, a throwaway remark about attracting sponsorship to cover some of our costs, without perhaps any experience in doing this or looking closely at how you go about getting a local firm to contribute (not a few hundred pounds) thousands of pounds over a full 12 months of tournaments.

I will close by saying that although we are comfortable that our rake for the tournament is fair as a stand-alone fee, we continue to offer so much more to our members that you again seem not to acknowledge. Without becoming a member at NPS you will never know this first-hand. I think that is a shame as you appear to be a player who takes their poker seriously and from that I would assume that you are either a promising talent or more established player and it would be great to attract you to join our club.

As I said earlier, I will now ask some of our members to come on here and post their testimonials, so you, and all at Furness Poker, can see how much more we give to our players.

Good luck with whatever you decide is the way forward for you Reg. I hope to see you online or live in the future.